Episode 36 · 35:12
How your need for external encouragement is distracting you from internal fulfilment
External encouragement can help you begin, but needing it for every step makes your direction vulnerable to whoever is watching. Dan and Tom examine the difference between healthy support and outsourcing your sense of fulfilment.
They argue for building internal evidence—values, effort and private wins—so that praise becomes welcome information rather than fuel you cannot move without.
The useful bits
What to take with you
- Encouragement is healthiest when it reinforces a direction you already value.
- If praise is the only measure, silence can feel like failure even when the work is improving.
- Keep a record of effort and progress that exists whether or not anyone applauds.
- Fulfilment grows from alignment with your values, not continuous approval.
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The original episode.
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Transcript
Transcript generated from YouTube captions. Dan/Tom speaker attribution is AI-assisted and may occasionally be incorrect.
What would be the strap line for it for us to clip it for the start of YouTube it's kind of like stop building stuff that requires external validation [Music] oh welcome welcome we are giving you another episode of don't be a dust up um I have obviously gone for this pink tinted concrete wall behind me it's one of those things I need to get a better setup because it takes me ages to set things up and be in the right place in.
The right room I wish there was like you know the guy with the green screen laptop going down up um going down a water slide I think I need something like that so that I can't be anywhere and do it that they attach to your seats just a circle oh like a green screen thing yeah it would make sense literally sit anywhere it would make it so much easier because the faff of like getting in the right location of the room and.
Stuff because especially because we've got like drum kit and stuff and music thing so I'm like trying to make sure that there's not too much in the background but I recognize or is it too fluffy trying to set design annoyingly it is hard to set design because I think the room's a bit too small there's not enough like depth in the room um because usually you know how YouTubers have it they have their camera and then there's actually quite a big.
Room behind the Mizner so then there's more space whereas here I don't think the angles quite work but I'm sure if I had it right against the wall and filmed into the room it'd make sense but then you'd have to make sure that every part of the room is tidy exactly exactly but um yeah that's how it goes yeah one thing I've wanted to share on the Pod so I've um going in with a hot take already ah definitely.
We've got to start hat I have readjusted some kind of like purpose and fulfillment kind of attributes about myself so I felt like I have this regular occurrence where I get to a point where I feel like I'm not being impactful and I start to analyze why is that happening and more so why is that happening in a repeat fashion I then realized that the reason why I get triggered in that way is because um oh sorry not triggered but the reason.
Why I feel that way is because I don't get enough external encouragement from the things that I that I do so I will do something or I'll be working on something and I hope that then the external person or the external parties uh encourage me or say oh that was really helpful to hear or oh that was really good and then that encouragement feeds back into me in this like circular um kind of like full circle uh moment but if you don't get and that.
Then feels like oh cool I'm having impact because I'm expecting impact to be a measurement of external encouragement now it's hard because I can't control the external encouragement it happens when it happens right um so then I've decided rather than having that big circle where it goes from internal it goes external and back in internal and be like cool I feel like I've got impact I've just reevaluated to find things that I can focus on myself that gives me a sense of impact because.
I am utterly internally fulfilled so an outworking of that is if I analyze the things that I'm doing am I enjoying it for myself or am I enjoying doing something because I'm hoping that somebody that sees the thing that I do or gets to receive the thing that I do gives me back encouragement to say oh I really like it and then that is it so they I'm always symbolizing like gesturing this like big circle versus small circle right an.
External Thing versus internal now the reason why I've struggled to internalize it is because I think I've been a bit scared like committing to something um and I'll tell you what it is so I've broadly now been like cool I'm going to focus on two things making money through apps uh and like products and drumming for camera and I think the reason why I've probably been scared to conclude those um is one on the drumming side I'm a bit I have been in the past a bit.
Worried about disappointing her and not being a very good drummer for example um and I wouldn't want that to happen therefore I've not said oh I'll be a drummer or not committed to do that even though logically it makes sense absolutely so this is just drumming for Kimmer right now not just any drumming correct yes yeah so like committing to doing drama because when I really think about cool if you're not going to do this like external need of encouragement.
To feel that you have impact why not look at the things that you feel like you've enjoyed the most and in my whole life I've enjoyed moments of drumming when I've drummed those have been the best moments and then when I've been like designing products or Building Products those have also been the best moments so I'm trying to just take those moments where I feel the most fulfilled and try to focus on them so in me committing and trying to visualize with.
Detail me being the drummer for camera like what that will look like what kind of stadiums I want to be playing what kind of World Tour like what will my lifestyle look like with that being the conclusion that I am the drummer and therefore XYZ happens I've kind of been like excited by it more and the apprehension or the nervousness disappears because again coming back to all our sport mindset stuff that we've been talking about I feel like I can.
Practice and rehearse and I will practice and rehearse to be good if I don't feel good and to get it right if I'm not getting it right so it's just like a well of course of course I'm going to put in the time and the effort because I really like this thing and I want to do a good job so in me like settling with that as a as a thing it um makes me feel fulfilled and I have.
Control over that that opportunity to kind of like feel internally fulfilled by just doing it and then the second thing is like yeah making money through products and stuff again I think I've probably been a little bit concerned that making money for yourself is a bad thing kind of thing right um and I've just been like no actually I really like making products and I need to pay rent so making money is for yourself is not a bad thing and just.
Like readjust it again the the thing rather than saying oh well I'm making this product for that person over there so that person benefits well actually I want to make money so I can have a particular lifestyle that allows me to build products um with flexibility and without the pressure of that it needs to um pay rent or whatever and also be able to be drumming and doing world tours and so forth so in just realigning with those two broad picture.
Things I can then get excited by visualizing the detail of those two things and then it's like cool I've almost removed the need for an external source of encouragement and been a little bit more I feel fulfilled so then I feel impactful because that was the a that was the age-old thing right I don't feel impactful because I basically wait on external encouragement so I've kind of changed that now to be like I can feel impactful if I'm doing the things that I.
Love really well like I'm a very good drummer I'm a very good designer and a builder like committing to those and doing those well is it's kind of like again if we talk about like God's purpose or God what God wants you to be doing like these skills and these things weren't given you given to you for like no reason for you not to use them so in utilizing them you feel like utterly fulfilled then there is a natural.
Byproduct of affecting other people with that right it's kind of like how do you want its impact um but it's also influence how can you be most um how can you be somebody of most influence influence others sometimes it's not about telling other people what they should be doing but like doing it for yourself so if you want to tell someone oh you should be getting fit like are you ripped are you super healthy do you have like no sicknesses.
No illnesses and stuff right to be able to be a um kind of like a little bit of the you know Shining Light Vibe so other people then are maybe I should be you know getting fit and so forth so again like it's about being the the Spearhead as a like a method or a vehicle to be influential rather than just telling people stuff with with wisdom or whatever yeah nice and how does it feel now going around in those circles the new.
Circles I I think it feels um like there's more control over the outcome so of course I can basically tap in to be feeling way more uh um excited way more like impactful because I I have a like a better control of the the variables that have been put into the the machine um so it feels liberating and it feels like cool I actually don't need to have this feeling of like I'm less impebble and the additional thing of like.
I think there's a drive in me that I'm never quite satisfied which is fine like that that's I think to me I like that because it basically means that I'm Innovative um uh so in seeing this pattern I can enjoy the fact that I'm Innovative just to myself like within myself so I benefit from that kind of like Drive stuff as well and um yeah it's just it's just realigned like anything it's like defragging your computer right it's reordered everything.
Absolute Clarity there's more energy there's more Focus to then carry on doing the goal of building these two like pillars are almost utilizing my skills in those things so what would be the strap line um for it for us to clip it for the start of YouTube Dan can save your life from your misery I I think it's more so about you need to stop building things on the oh let me let me let me riff it first let me because this is gonna be.
Straight off the dome right we're like don't cut this into it right we haven't said that it just it's kind of like stop building stuff that requires external validation right so stop building processes or stop building stop building ecosystems that rely on external encouragement to keep you going that's it so like create that internal encouragement more so then it's more um yeah basically more predictable right you can you can manage it a bit better and everything so I would say but yeah.
Nice wrap in the mug as always yeah and I've realized that I have to speak while I've got the mark because otherwise it won't look at me so I have to drink and also's talk at the same time you'll have to master your puppeteering exactly exactly so yeah I think again as well the more you share these ideas and these Concepts and you and you riff these Concepts in your own head I think you then find the best way to articulate.
It so I'm really glad that I I spoke a lot with it about Cameron actually Kim and brought this angle to it like hey I think there's this thing that you're um kind of utilizing and maybe you should internalize it more because that's exactly what she's done and found way more uh fulfillment in that as well um yeah so then in just riffing it and telling other people you can figure out the the formulized method and Clarity to.
It and it reminds me of something else I've started to trigger on on um is um there was this podcast that we listened to last night on a really long drive about um guys and what guys want to feel like specifically in church contexts and so forth um and I don't always agree with the narratives of like guys I don't really understand those ideas as such I don't resonate with those things but one thing that they were saying is about guys want.
To be uh guys want to be good communicators and guys want to be leaders so do we all guys or a sections guys well everything is a generalization right but they're full for guys to stay in church they want to be like help them to be good communicators because good communicators basically get promoted for leadership and they want to be leaders they want to be revered right so I don't always agree with that positioning um because it ultimately to me that.
Sounds like somebody's turned up at a church day one and they're like look how everybody's like really liking this preacher person I want to be that person like that's not necessarily the right way about it right you want to be like like that's why I don't necessarily agree that it's right for um us to want to be the person on the stage because leadership is is always such a mix of yes it could be on the stage but it also might not be.
It's kind of like the last person right that that's kind of like making sure the last last person is is encouraged to do something and is like leading from the the back and that's sometimes what leadership looks like as well as sometimes leadership doesn't even include a group of people right it might be just um leading your own situation and your own stuff that then becomes inspiring to other people it's not that you have any sort of leadership or.
Management capacity over over a group or over other people either um but yeah I just found it really interesting about the whole um people wanting to be good communicators and also it was saying in this podcast the guys noticed that good communicators are relished and like celebrated whereas bad communicators or people aren't as good aren't so much so then they drop out because ultimately there is a proportion of guys that want to be leaders but they're not very good.
So they're not going to get that oh I want to be revered or whatever like I don't agree with that concept it doesn't align it doesn't align with Biblical kind of like position of servant leadership right so it's a fascinating thing personally for me I have wanted to communicate in particularly from a stage because one I've been there long enough and I've paid my dues in other ways to make sure that it's not an ego thing and also I think I'm pretty decent at.
Communicating and wanting to utilize that skill to convey ideas to encourage others and that's nothing to do with me although fast forward five minutes you just heard oh basically do I encourage others mainly to hear back encouragement or do I just encourage others and I would say I just encourage others it's not always about what you get back right yeah so like how do we how do we because you and I like how do we fit into that like have we felt those things.
Have we not like yeah it's and and how do we create the right focuses and disciplines to feel basically respected and fulfilled or like respected and utilized or like celebrated because not everybody is going to be a communicator um like in that particular fashion right it doesn't mean that you therefore will never have influence or therefore you'll never help people I think we've kind of glamorized certain specific roles for example a worship leader or a preacher and we've glamorized those as.
The main places where you're going to have influence um I'm going to enjoy the attention of yeah there's two things that comes to my brain is one I was just thinking of people that want to be leaders but don't have any communication skills so I was just imagine it's on preaching through grunting at the front and everyone amen and yeah yeah so that is my uh intrusive thought of the day um one thing I've noticed is it's way.
More louder when I've turned my mic more like this I'm speaking down it you're stealing you stay in the flow stay in the flow um all my intrusive thoughts um and the last bit is I've forgotten so you're saying about imagine somebody with no Communications oh yeah I remember good is it not the fact that they want to be good communicators or is it more the fact that they want to be known because like you're on the stage you're.
More likely to do analogies or you're more likely to even just see the person's personality through preaching or singing um or know them a little bit more than the congregation so is it more that they want to be known and that's the way in how they've been known but they don't know it I I don't know I think power broadly speaking people want to be liked right they they want to be celebrated because if you think of History we.
Typically celebrate historical figures we um talk about them a lot like I I think that it's probably they want to feel good which is fine that's completely fine because really it's about connection right they want connection and maybe the quickest easiest way to have connection is start preaching from the front because that's just like a a route one type of football approach right on the middle kind of thing when really it's a it's a case of you know everything doesn't like.
Influence doesn't need to be in that fashion but I'm not saying that it's bad for people to want lead leadership because there are people that want to lead are good at leading here and should lead so it's just a case of measuring the drive to make sure that that's actually like the correct Drive rather than like oh I want to be wanted my I'm not sure if I 100 agree that that's a good like Baseline thing of like I want to be wanted.
I guess it's it's the most obvious job in the sense that you see it and you can see all the glory that you might see not the breakdown I've started the tennis series on Netflix of because you mentioned it on the weekend break yes point is it yeah yeah and that's the thing is you notice okay you might know the tennis player's name their background how many kids they got their lifestyle but actually they have a coach that's.
Always with them and actually one will be a tennis coach one will be a sports coach want to be a Physio and you'll get to know all these other teams that actually is linked to success but you're always more likely than not unless you're in those Industries clearly linked this the success to the individual so like if you have a but also the individual probably gets paid the most and it gets dripped for down so similar to a church you'd probably have the.
Pastor or the worship leader is probably the next one that gets paid and then everything gets spilled down even though actually the worship leader that's more often than not guitarist piano player or singer um actually needs the drums or the bassist or whatever but it's difficult because I think everyone likes the thought of um the front runner I guess likes the idea of it and probably even blinds out the fact of all the difficult conversations that you might be able to have or need.
To have with others through the week but they just see the sun the Sunday they just see the performance they don't see the training basically similar to tennis they see the Wimbledon win rather than all year round you've lost and you've broken a leg and you're coming back yeah which is more so where character comes in right so yes everybody sees the Highlight Reel and like oh wouldn't it be cool to have this influence where you're talking from the front and that's.
Not the reality the singular the only thing that happens there is a lot more of character a lot more engagement lots more stuff going on in the background let alone the other people in the background their assist with something going the way that it that it goes yeah I guess it's just like trying to make sure that really guys and guys in the church like try and find their own their own thing for themselves again when we're talking.
About this circle of like going from internal to external and then back again like it might be the rather than saying hey you want to leave well everybody every single person every individual is a leader in some capacity some shape or form um and then whether or not you could just change it so like Hey how do you feel fulfilled as an individual like how do you feel like um like what I was saying before like internally um fulfilled with what you're doing.
Um they were also saying in this pod a bunch of people are coming a bunch of guys are coming to church wanting discipleship now I think there were discipleship is interchangeable with mentorship but then nobody would Mentor them right um and then once engagement to them and I was wondering whether or not that's a bit of a blend so one of the comments he then said like are the old guys are like oh look at all these like young kids.
That are like CEOs or successful or whatever earning a bunch of money or whatever and it all comes down to again like the the annoyance of comparison we're all we all fulfill to comparison again remove external um kind of needs or visuals or inputs and just internalize things like so for example if you were somebody was asking you for mentorship and they were asking you for mentorship about well just to be like have another guy to chat through.
Idea ideas or problems or issues or like visions and stuff let's say that that's that guy's vision is to have a family wherever and you were single you might be like Oh I'm not sure how I can I feel insecure life I don't feel like I can input into this so yeah it's all about what do you want and can you um just change things to kind of mitigate out so the older guys like oh we don't feel like we can relate to.
These young guys because these guys young guys have done loads better than us so how can we Mentor them you know yeah I think mentorship might be like really just another person like people don't people typically aren't insignificant they'll have some sort of relevant experience or something even though the scenarios might not be the same but in the same vein there's no point going to ask somebody how to run a business if they've never run a business right there's there is a relevance.
Aspect to things but if you're just wanting General guy mates then it doesn't need to be like cats all the time yeah yeah yeah like friendship basically like like bromancers doesn't need to be like for life yeah I've also been thinking about um how organizations let's say for argument's sake we've created this ecosystem in the church where you'll be revered or be like worshiped if you're the guy on stage right um then charismatic people typically are the people that go to the stage right so.
How do you yeah make sure that charismatic people or like confident people or um good things have don't happen to be also narcissists and egocentric now egos I think are okay within measurement right because I would say it's a it's a kind of like it's blended with confidence so there is that you you should be confident and there is a right level of kind of like self-confidence and stuff which is kind of like I would say maybe a little bit Vigo you do want a.
Little bit of confidence right self-confidence but when that comes too much then when there's a fall from grace like a mistake or or something that then um alienates a bunch of people rightly so how do we then create organizations which are basically faceless so we don't have those moments where we're basically attracted to somebody's ability to communicate or like uh whip up a crowd or whatever whatever um and we still have the um impact and the good stuff that they.
Share well I guess it's okay to have that Joy because it's as if you can have that joy into seeing Nadal or Federer keeping on the tennis analogy of how amazing they are but I guess it's going what bit about them do you like is it the fact that they've got a lot of money is it the fact that they're good at talking with people is it because they're how their personas come across and then it's it's I think how you perceive situations.
Positive or negative sometimes can be the greatest mirrors to understand what's actually going on in your own heart mind soul whatever you want it Go of if you're jealous of a Federer of a Nadal but you're not jealous of the person that's hundredth in the in the um rankings it's like okay then what part are you jealous is it the fame is it the money or is it the fact that playing tennis but actually if you're a hundredth and.
Can let's say have a full-time pay but you're not jealous of them because you're like actually I'm not that bothered about tennis I more want this thing it just shows you what your values or beliefs are if you know them or not I guess um which is interesting and I think it's definitely worth taking that um what is getting highlighted and then lifting up a mirror and going okay what is it that I like about this person it.
Might be just the basic factors like there's a guy it's like oh they grow a cool beard or whatever it's like cool that's okay to be like that's awesome to encourage someone because you might be just an encourager to be like that's awesome I'm gonna try my best next movember or whatever but then if you don't do it it's not going that person's better or worse and I think he's adding an element of judgment after it it's just going.
Cool I can appreciate that person but I don't need to become them yeah yeah yeah yeah I don't know that's all it adds to your point yeah it is about kind of like the Baseline characteristics and where they get their Inspirations from so then you can manage things so let's say that like we're all fallible for mistakes right we're not we're not perfect I'm not perfect so what watching out for the like the bigger picture thing really and trying to engage in.
That rather than specifically the person's character to avoid like the disappointment or the breakdown of everything's been piled on this one individual yeah because I think in churches it typically does happen like that there's one particular individual that gets to become the face of some movement or uh production of groups a group of churches or whatever whatever and it becomes like the higher up the ladder you go the further you have to follow all those like analogies so how do you avoid that.
Thing to keep on the movement of like basically being Jesus Apprentice right um rather than being humans and following humans although we it's fine to be encouraged and and um uh like inspired by humans but I guess it's like where do they get their inspiration off and trying to always find the the Baseline stuff yeah I remember chatting to a bishop I think he was Bishop of Sherwood back when in my 40th of uni and I was doing.
An internship with the um Church of England background being a Baptist I knew nothing um but doing mint Sports Ministry which was interesting and what he used to say is being a bishop is everyone would want him to pray or encourage or whatever as if it's like this Secret Sauce yeah but a lot of the time of let's say it's someone in um there are a hospital and one prayer for healing or want encouragement through it through their difficult time it's a lot.
Of the time he'll go the trick is is you take someone with you you might lead the whole situation they can observe then you go again that other person leads the prayer or the encouragement You observe the next time that person either goes along alone or take someone else and it was so super basic to the point of because the point is Jesus the point isn't me because if I go on my own the dependence is on me and then if I go.
Again on my own dependence on me if I bring someone else into it sometimes when you bring them too late well they've created a bond with you so you can't always necessarily offload it slash it might look like a negative thing that you're ditching you off to this other guy because you've took on too much or whatever rather than going cool no it's it's more of just a natural way of this guy I trust this guy as well he trusts him.
Because he's opened up to him coming on that Journey um of a bishop and I guess it's that sort of golden handshake of if the manager was like oh this is a great player trust trust my skills of under 16 I want to bring him into the first team you give more likely the benefit of the doubt okay there is an element of they'll find their feet in it but you'd like to think okay you could do that.
Process over a long period of time he was just given a small example um but it is that that you're slowly handing off the button to other people that that might be genuinely really passionate about ministering to people through illness and they might have even more of a background maybe they've got a nursing or doctoring but like background or maybe they've just been through pain or difficulty themselves but because you've just got this sort of Bishop um identity.
Job role whatever you want to call it it's that it's as if people think you're closer to God like you've got this Holiness um and I think he's quite good at I guess just grounding people in the fact that even though he's super he was very intelligent very switched on and I could understand why people would want a piece of him to some extent um I think he realizes if he did that to everyone he would be well everything to.
Nobody to some extent so it's that actually his discernment and wisdom of bringing people along and journeying it a it builds up other people and then B it offlows necessarily a responsibility but as well if that person then takes other people whatever they can still come back to you and ask you questions it doesn't mean that fully over and actually you might want to go and visit now with two other people that are more praying just because you feel prompted.
To and I guess it just frees you up rather than tying you up into responsibility for the responsibilities sake because you put yourself there rather than because you have to be there it's so fascinating and that makes a lot of sense that the expectations because of an outfit right or a projection and it's trying to like avoid um avoid those internally and externally right internally try and assess and self-analyze the right drivers and then secondary yeah seeing it within.
Other people and expecting other other people to have it all sorted or whatever um fun thought to ponder on yeah the 30 minute Mark I think to like wrap up or conclude a little it's interesting that people want to like men want to or again generalizing generally men want to be good communicators so they can be good leaders which is cool how do you become a good communicator what's one thing that you would start with the end was that a question and that was.
A question for you I think you're going to come in with like a Oh I thought it's like you're on that for next time yeah comment in like what makes somebody a good communicator have you gotten have you got a thought if not I'll answer um I always thought it was marketing going into marketing but then I realized you just learn a lot Theory and it doesn't actually help you so I think it is just getting into different circles.
Getting to know different um people's backgrounds where they've come from what they've gone through you learn by trial and error of how to communicate your heart their heart asking a lot questions understanding what they're trying to say because even though someone's communicating to you you might think what they're trying to say but they're actually trying to communicate something else so it's understanding where they're coming from and equally where you want to take them because as well people's backgrounds you might say one thing but.
They might take it another thing um yeah you've done you've done it beautifully well where the question is how do you become a good communicator and you've basically been like become a good listener I like that and I think that's true I think that's true I think listening is a good part and that relaying back and understanding yourself so you're not projecting pain from your own situation onto someone else's situation and think they might be going through something.
They're not AKA what we call as Shadow Boxing when you're boxing against your past self or your mental health or emotional health that you might be doing in front of people which is okay if it's a safe space rather than you're doing it unintentionally yeah I think for me kind of alongside your marketing Point although you said this is sometimes a bit more Theory I think um storytelling is a big part of communication so telling stories figuring out that and.
Figure out um like find people that tell good stories um like comedians are very good storytellers they're very good communicators because they play on the things that they do tell you and they play on the things that they don't tell you the things that you think um yeah so I think storytelling is uh is probably like get good at telling stories this one way to get better at communication the end that's a wrap like And subscribe see you.
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