Episode 44 · 32:06
Hustle Culture doesn't want you to know this
Dan and Tom challenge the idea that meaningful progress must always look like doing more. They discuss finding people who share your interests, choosing where to place effort and separating controllable work from outcomes you cannot command.
The result is a calmer alternative to hustle culture: fewer priorities, better company and enough space to notice what the work is doing to you.
The useful bits
What to take with you
- Doing less is productive when it removes work that does not serve the goal.
- Shared interests make connection easier because the conversation already has somewhere to begin.
- An anxious path is not automatically more committed than an easeful one.
- Judge yourself by the care you bring to controllable actions, not every external reaction.
Watch the conversation
The original episode.
Full conversation
Transcript
Transcript generated from YouTube captions. Dan/Tom speaker attribution is AI-assisted and may occasionally be incorrect.
Kind of always positioned this as like purpose and Business and Entrepreneurship and ideas and stuff and I love the fact that like our podcast episode is going to be like do less don't be be a door stop don't be a door stop and welcome back to don't be a door stop um we have some interesting topics to talk about we've actually got bullet points this week woo need sound effects as well um so I think we're looking into should I do a summary of what we're.
Going into te tease the audience so we're looking at um meetups Indie hackers superbase and Faith rest and receive so we'll jump into those three topics I feel like we need one of those wheel things that we can just Spin and then see which one we land on first yeah which topic do you want us to speak about first isn't it so well first item on the list is probably the best one to speak about first isn't it so I have.
Been enjoying um finding my people as they would say you know finding your people when it comes to the mindset or Hobbies um and kind of like ways of working like approaches to life and so forth so over the past few months and I guess this has like been a bit of a change you know when you're trying to find people of the same mindset uh so whether or not that's like entrepreneurial or like ideas or positivity um and you want to want to.
Find a group of people because it's takes a lot of energy to keep those kind of like uh characteristics up um so basically I looked at the technologies that I use and the tools that I use and I wanted to find people that also use the same things and that's how I got into like hackathons I'm not sure if I mentioned on the Pod but I I submitted two entries to two separate hackathons and the first hackathon I got silver and.
Then the second hackathon I got gold and I think just even that process of um putting yourself out there um especially when it comes to code because I've always felt like my code might be critiqued and they might think I've done it really badly or something so putting yourself out there funny funnily enough no one cares right they just care about how it works generally speaking as a concept as an idea um and that's been really good and then some other Network.
That I've kind of like jumped onto as a recommendation from the first Network like they even asked me to speak so going back to like you know when they say like build your own table if you're not being invited to speak with something they actually were like hey do you want to speak at one of our meetups and that was a lot of fun um because that's the first time I've again done like a tech talk of some sorts not Ted.
Talk yet a tech tech talk which again is a bit scary because you don't know what these these people are probably smarter than you and they're probably going to ask like difficult questions but it's fine right like they did ask questions and and they weren't hard to answer and worst case scenario you say oh that's a great question I I don't actually know right I'll be able to find out for you or or something like that so that's been.
Really good and a recommendation from that group was something called Indie hackers London um which is predominantly like the day-to-day is like a slack group but they do have meetups uh I've missed the meetups so far um and they've recently released this um leaderboard of things that you've shipped so shipping something means like deploying something to a website so getting something from not being live to live so people can use it and they have this leaderboard so every time you chime into this channel.
It like puts you on the leaderboard and it has your like daily strike um a daily not strike daily um streak that's the word streaking um so that's I've I only been doing that for like a week and I've already noticed that this angle of like competition SL accountability is is helping me focus and I'm almost kind of like doing work to be able to submit into the leaderboard to be regarded as somebody that's kind of like shipping a.
Lot um which is interesting because I'm not in competition with them as suchar it's more so if I'm known as this entrepreneur and this like Indie hacker or this guy that develops stuff like how often am I doing that and the regularity of it almost is consistent with the label so you can't call yourself an indie hacker if you're not shipping AKA right that that's how my brain is kind of like feeding it and and approaching it so I'm like to be viewed as a a fully.
Flooded Indie hacker and not this like hobbyist like oh I've Jo joined this group for just fun like posting regularly is is giving me like tricking my brain into thinking oh I can now call myself which ultimately actually is an insecurity right that I don't feel good enough to be able to call myself just because like even if I didn't ship um but I'm tricking my brain into basically getting myself into a a place of uh efficiency in some ways and then like.
The third group um what what is indie hacker because I've come across it but I wouldn't be able to explain it to anyone yeah good great question I don't know I'll find out now I'm J um Indie hacker stands for independent hacker or like indie games which again are like independent games um so it's this concept that typically they like they're synonymous with like Nomads Nomads are kind of like digital people that travel and create tools and Indie hackers are essentially the same.
It just doesn't have the travel aspect as much potentially sort of like a soul Trader more than a company type of VI yeah they're a bit more like in that realm of well it's a kind of range right there in the realm of freelancing like side hustles they might have fully fledged projects that are full-time but they have full ownership of it or they've built it themselves or or something so Indie hacker Nomad digital Nomad they kind of like blend.
You either do travel a lot and jump around or you or you don't but it's predominantly kind of like you're not owned by anybody else you're your own person and you're building your own things that's essentially essentially yeah good good question I forgot I didn't explain yeah the third and final group I've like really enjoyed uh networking in is um my first million my first million is a podcast there's this startup that have generated kind of like Community groups based off popular.
Podcasts so they've taken like um my first million they've also taken that uh Brian Johnson guy you know the guy that's like tweaking everything about his life to kind of like basically not die um like he's a really really interesting person so this startup is spinning off Community groups off the back of like famous or popular podcasts and it means that people in London are arranging meetups because we all like the same thing but it's not facilitated by the Creator like the my first million.
Guys are not doing it it's like we're doing it because we enjoy the podcast we want to meet other people that are like-minded so that's been like really good to again meet people of a similar mindset um positivity ideas inspiring like wanting to do a little bit more than the just standard kind of like house dog kids kind of approach um yeah so I've I've really enjoyed that basically that's cool do you know how many people are in the area that are.
Interested in those certain podcasts does it give you a bit of a number umol I can't remember because they're just events it's like 30 people have decided to come to this event in the slack group there's probably hundreds if not thousands of people um again there is this like good slack integration which me like triggers every week to connect you with one person in the group into like a direct message so ucing you to somebody like hey meet Tom down meet Tom.
Like heit you're in this group now like chat to each other or arrange your Meetup and if you do great if you don't that's fine we'll arrange like we'll automatically sync you up to somebody else next week um so you just tell them did you meet or did you not meet and I found it really interesting meeting people through that format essentially like forced um kind of like speed dating Vibes right like for Indie hacking speed dating and it's not always about wanting.
To get something out of the other person sometimes it's just like awesome you're doing your thing let me celebrate you and I'm doing my thing and you celebrate me kind of thing it's not that we're trading anything as as such so yeah I find that really helpful really helpful that's cool it's probably quite nice cuz it's randomized as well you sort of don't really know what will come from it so it probably feels like a bit more of.
An adventure rather than you going to either deliberately make a friend or deliberately go for a client you're in that space B of actually you don't know which is probably quite fun to figure out could it be one or the other or neither um a lot more the possibilities yeah the possibilities are endless exactly yeah oh that's cool yeah yeah I also found the leaderboard stuff inspiring for like our to-do list leaderboard and how already it's spurred me on so I know.
We've spoken about you know putting a leaderboard in our to-do app I know that we have an unofficial one and it's funny cuz as as I've not posted on Twitter this week yeah yeah like it's that kind of like a little bit of healthy competition goes a long way um so I definitely need to build a a leaderboard for the todoist todoist Todo list so then we can um have that accountability and kind of competition um so yeah that's kind like encouraged.
Me I guess a little bit on that that's cool yeah cuz I was thinking it would be quite cool and even just the element of I think for being the creators of the to-do app knowing how much everyone has found the app helpful in the sense of they have completed a thousand tasks and broken down 200 tasks and got stuck on 50 T you're like sweet actually we've enabled those a thousand tasks to be hopefully easier for those.
Individuals because they still com to the app yeah 100% that's the sort of Hope in that regards which is good and and if we're in the list I can see so the guy that created it it says like bracket's moderator and I can see that he's on top of the list and I'm like I kind of want to beat him because he's the owner right and if I'm better than the guy running the show like that'll be pretty cool so there's this.
Is who at the top of the list is uh the owner of it that's at the top of the list yeah 100% shares but um there is no prize it's just like bragging rights and again like it's funny how you if you can play on somebody's like OS a little bit then it works quite well so for bragging right like for example you know with usot using Insider um Kim uses Insider you and I use Insider and then there's a.
Bunch of other people now it really feels like the three of us are actively using it in like a super intense way like a 100 tasks plus kind of thing oh to do you Mak products now said but oh did I I meant to say to subliminal messaging people with other products so it's funny how the three of us because we know that okay like I think at one point like you were first uh I was second and kimma and then Kim's come.
Into second place and then I was first and then now Kim's first kind of thing and it's funny how that's like encouraged and spurred on that that uh competition esque like angle as it were which is funny really funny is funny oh it seems like you've washed off your I was going to say we need a better producer of our mugs cuz it's like all faded on my mug so anytime somebody's like um it's cuz I put it in the.
Dishwasher are you hand washing yours no I just don't have not used it regularly don't use it I obviously use yeah it's either a sign that I use it a lot which I did or it's dishw I shouldn't be dishwashing it I should be handwashing it but um every time I try and show people they're like don't be and then they can't really see the with door stop you should just doodle with a sharpie each week a different style yeah.
Probably like um keep jues flowing yeah a whiteboard marker type thing on it so and then it'll just wash off and then you just have to start again each week yeah recreating a endless creativity of things until I like forget and I just like hold on to it like this and I have a bunch of marker on my hand so yeah cuz actually a Sharpie probably would work on it right if I did it in a Sharpie it probably wouldn't.
Wash off if I put it would probably like wear away over time similar to The Print anyway isn't it so yeah I think it would it' be a shortterm fix short to medium depending on how much you wash it yeah so I'm going to go Rogue I've not got these at bullet points but anything else that you've been like thinking about or any other ads on like when it comes to like Community groups and finding your people or anything um I think that's the.
Thing is it's just it's it's easy and it's hard at the same time I feel because it feels like life's gone in a direction that there so much um customization cuz I was thinking this the other day of like in the past everyone pretty much probably used to watch you'd either have cting Network FOX kids or Nickelodeon so you'd always have those reference points of talking about SpongeBob everyone would know but these days you can talk about SpongeBob topics but more newer and they.
Might have not even come across it just because of different algorithms and stuff like that so actually it's harder to communicate a topic so then you have to then like what you're saying is going out and search for that but then you find out actually there's more hardcore fans to some extent it feels like everyone's in a camp rather than everyone enjoys it for what it's worth it's like no no no you would tap into a streamer that's got like fullon.
SpongeBob SquarePants wallpaper and everything um so it is really it is really interesting and I think it is that it's handy to I I think I quite like that slack thing forcing you to mix with different people as well because it's making sure that you're not just tunneling yourself to one communic group where actually people do have Joys and passions spread around um but sometimes when something's on your brain you can just talk about to-do app because that's.
On my brain right now but actually I've got a hobby of hockey and that over there um but that's what's helped me is it's just joining a club locally because I know each week you got that accountability of either training or match that you're like call and plooding along with playing hockey and that type of thing so it's quite useful in that regard it does make me think that the methodology or like the the systems of meeting people so if you go to a new.
Town or a new city or something like universities are great because you're kind of like forced into it so it happens and essentially a lot of the time you network around a particular joint like experience or activity but like outside of those like forced situations like these like Tech meetups or like events so like couple weeks back we went to a music event which is really good you you can't speak to everybody in the room so people have done these like.
Mobile apps so you can see who's in the room and then you can speak to them but to some degree you kind of want the enjoyment of non-digital interactions so doing this kind of like forced meet up which is essentially the um like what's that dating thing where you like you got 2 minutes to chat to people uh speed dating right I I think the speed dating model as in like a bunch of people 2 minutes switch 2.
Minutes switch I think that's like probably is the best way to meet people generally I mean they've done it with um dating so why would it not be done with business and hobbies and stuff so I'm like it kind of like makes sense especially when you know if you go to a pub a lot of the time you'll sit with the same table get to know that table and then you can't really move because there's not enough room or or whatever.
Or it's you'll feel rude kind of like getting up and and moving somewhere else so if you had like a initially like 10 minutes worth of speed dating then like cool we all now know each other to some degree you can now free reign chat to everybody in your own way I that's interesting unless the pub is a fan of um future armor and just yells out change places well may maybe that's maybe that is it it's kind of like a every 10.
Minutes or every 15 minutes you kind of have this like forced change places so then you are forced to mix forced to do and and I guess it's like I I know it might be difficult for like introverts but you hope that like 10 minute five minute two minute interactions are okay with them you know yeah absolutely like mustering up the energy for that and also then they don't get dominated by extroverts dominating the conversation although I think the best kind of extrovert is.
Somebody that can like have a group conversation and bring people in as and when they have the energy to like muster in with a answer or because I did spot a um recently just in Rose on see how they've got a a bench that's basically like a if you want to have a chat sit on this bench but it's it's got it in English and in Welsh and I was like the difficulty with that is what if someone.
Wants to practice their Welsh sitting on it or just can only speak Welsh and someone that just can only speak English actually they still can't talk to each other so to some extent it would be handy to have them separate not to pull people apart but just to bring the clarity of or even just like a system of like if you sit on this side first it means you want to speak Welsh if you sit on this side so then it's you got less.
Of a a miscommunication when really you might just genuinely want to just chat to someone because you feel low or lonely or just you fancy chat someone interesting the third angle which is like somebody doesn't somebody can't read English somebody can't read Welsh because they have another first language and they sit on the Welsh bench thinking oh it must be some inscribed you know kind of like in memory of it must be some inscribed like in memory of.
This person kind of thing and they sit on it and somebody start speaking and they getting really annoyed everyone's talking to yeah yeah I just want to eat my fish and chips alone or whatever they end up do insert stereotype thing to do on a bench in in North Wales but yeah it is very interesting another thing that I've been thinking about recently um with obviously doing Insider and the journey of that so in January we did a press.
Release and um got some press coverage which was great it bumped up our numbers um one on on signups and also just like attention generally so we have over like 1,300 users now which is great um and also the leads that we've got from that and leads are like connections the people that have reached out to us off the back of seeing us online and wanting to have conversations with us which is really really interesting we've had people from America we've had people.
From Nigeria kind of like reaching out wanting to connect and I found that um really really interesting and I'll be honest like at the start I wasn't that bothered about PR right um but Kim had the energy for it so I was like cool like you you do it um and now it's like resorted in some like really really interesting conversations that I can't like properly share about yet because they in the works um and I'm I think with like many.
Things there's like two and even building a product generally there's like two Pathways there's one pathway where I get super anxious about trying to get more people on the app and super kind of like I've got to do this and kind of like uptight about it all or I get to enjoy it the fact that I don't get uptight and do things where I have the energy for and in this sense of like flow and Rhythm um where things might.
Initially be slower or perceived slower but then ultimately they result in things that you could not have facilitated yourself so for example yes we do this PR thing we can't then control whether or not somebody sees it that's of interest um that it's of interest to them and they are of interest to us and then they reach out and then we have a meeting with them and it goes really well and then they passes on to another team kind of like second.
In line to be like cool now these guys are going to make the decision and then that goes really well you know like I can't control that I can't facilitate that I don't I didn't even know about this individual so again when we kind of bleed in like faith and and guard into this stuff it's like there's going to be this one like done in your own energy and your own velocity and your own strength and there's one where you.
Basically like trust God has good things for you and knows best and can help facilitate this stuff and bring people to you um in this kind of like favor way which is basically like good things happening to you um just because not because you've done anything um and I find it's like fascinating when you're on the side that's like e quotequote easiest kind of like enjoying the fact that you can look over to the other side and be like yeah there's another pathway.
Where I'm super anxious um and think about it so for example I was watching a video of um of this startup lady she runs this app to log uh where people have zero hour contracts and stuff to log their like time sheets and like when they're working and so forth and get their pay and all the rest of it she's uh done a bunch of rounds of investing and before that she was talk telling her origin story and she said she emailed.
2,000 people to get like 70k right so or out of the 2,000 emails it resulted in 70k worth of like investment for her to carry on her business she actually um her business across the time that it's been around I'm not sure how long it's been around as such but there was six times when nearly they went bust so I'm like oh that's really interesting so let's take that send 2,000 emails there is a version of me that.
Also sent 2,000 emails and also got a result um but there was also a version of me that sent zero emails and from this PR gets this one guy that then results in something greater than that and I'm like oh yeah like I'm enjoying the fact that I've not had to send 2,000 emails because I have in the past sent loads of messages and I know what that's like and it was like in life how can you carry on being in this pathway of like.
Ease versus anxiety and kind of like you know grasping really hard on on kind of like formulating the outcome and I guess when we come to like talking about God or faith sometimes we can create things um like in our own control so for example studying hard and getting 12 A's or 12 a stars or 129 or what because I think they use numbers now don't they like is that relying on God or not because ultimately you were able to do.
That yourself so are there way are there Pathways in your life where you know you can't do it and basically you trust in God for it um and not try to control or orchestrate because you are somebody that is skillful generally speaking so you can kind of pretend that God exists almost um but it's actually your hard work as has achieved those 12 a stars as it were and when it comes to a moment where you have to basically go beyond.
Your skill level because like oh skill doesn't have this like rooftop so you have to trust in the universe or trust in God in in my context anyway like it's a really fascinating like yeah just Dynamic of things yeah I've laid it on thick but maybe you can pull out a couple of things that inspire you I think it's that I I think for our case knowing that God is for you because he's a a loving father he's a he's a loving entity um.
Definitely helps because then you're submitting to a greater power that that has the best for you to some extent and it even brings it even brings more light of let's say that pitin didn't work that you can learn something from it develop from it so it's sort of a double-edged sword in that regards that a you don't need to um strive too much you can put your it doesn't mean don't do anything is put your input in but to some extent.
Don't strive in the areas that have no control you're handing over the control and actually regardless of what the outcome is good things can come from it and I think that's always a nice thing because it could be ah there was a spell mistake in it so actually I need to go back to the drawing board and and potentially get a writer to write up the pr thing because I didn't realize it was sperate or and that's the thing is like.
Recognizing that you're not put in all the um what's the word pressure yeah on like it to work ASAP it brings an element of Stillness and calmness that it'll happen when it happens type of element that you try your hardest if it doesn't quite work that's cool it could be a timing thing because at the end of the day if you created AI before the Internet it's worthless and no one would know about it and it's that it's that.
Interesting thing of sort of I guess the ABS and flows of Life of recognizing when is something useful and valuable that something might be sort of pulling on your heart to be like sort this out now but it might not be needed for the world let's say in 10 years time and that's okay it's just going cool follow that gut feeling that's it's like yes I need to plot along here um because I came across a a guy that was a I think.
He was like a game developer or something and he was making loads of games and the point was he was just creating a game and just learning from it just manyi games but then someone did a comment on one of the games going ah this could be a really good I think like a horror film or something so then he came up with a different idea and then went down the horror film and then now has created different horror things and.
Become famous by that and that's the thing it's those sort of interactions those sort of knocking of heads or bumping into people that could just push you into the right sort of Direction in that regards because you're not I guess putting all the pressure in striving in your own energy that actually there is an element of um yeah things working out but you don't know how people are going to interact or want to help you out or whatever do that Mak sense yeah it's the.
Mindset of positivity and how can you create a mindset of positivity because you know what you're relying on right and it's the kind of like what are you what are you um how how can you be positive well you're positive because you know know that this individual is like trustworthy or reli like you know the character of that individual and you know them well enough to be able to rely on that as like optimism for going forward and and doing things um and I.
Think it comes with overstretching right over stretching is such a great phrase um when you realize you're over stretching or like you said like striving it's trying to get back into a place of like ease and it doesn't mean it doesn't mean laziness or inactivity or um like doing nothing it's about doing things kind of like in collaboration with God or the kind of the the general Vibe of good boundaries and good kind of like energy rather than it being sapping you and.
It's absolutely counterculture countercultural to the hustle thing because ultimately The Narrative generally right now is if you're not see CEO by 25 then you failed right like this whole like achievements um for public kind of like display of those achievements for other people's opinions and also the um like work work hard and the reason why people succeed is because they've worked harder than you and I think it's like it's a blend and I think what's countercultural is like can you.
Do less uh and doing less um which essentially means you do the fewer things with more intentionality and I think that seems to work better rather than doing more but of course that's counter what the larger narratives are around hustle and working really hard and have the side hustle and so forth so it's a really interesting blend of just like a complete different approach which on the face of it uh doesn't feel right because we've been told these narratives.
To work hard and do these things and have these side hustles and so forth but you do realize as soon as you lean back and kind of like trust in the process process which is this different approach to life you you see the rewards AKA you start to realize oh I didn't have to send 2,000 emails like oh the enjoyment of the fact that I didn't feel anxiety through this journey and you kind of like enjoy the um the fact that those.
Things are now not a part of the day-to-day yeah yeah so I thought that's has been really really helpful just to have a better like approach yeah yeah for sure and more energy that's really good so what are we leaving with homework for the listeners that have listen this far I would say do stuff that don't make sense AKA do less right do the like the non-anxiety version of it of this like hustle culture and I guess I guess it's more.
Than one thing but uh it is yeah where can you do less essentially where can you do less what be your takeover take over take take home I think it is the element of not only doing less but being more present because I think sometimes you can it's sort of it's as if you're being more aware if it's just the textures of the carpet in the floor or whatever that might give you a different idea it's it's not only doing less but it's sort.
Of grounding self in that process yeah I I love the fact that you know we've kind of always positioned this as like purpose and Business and Entrepreneurship and ideas and stuff and I love the fact that like our podcast episode is going to be like do less and I think it's good because that's an important side of it sometimes you know be present do less and on that note keep hammering those Nails bye for now don't be a door stop don't be a door.
Stop.